Minneapolis / St. Paul News Blog

Seeing this, I can only feel vindicated for leaving Lutheranism many years ago for the truth as found and tuaght in the Greek Orthodox Church. I hope others will follow. The ELCA has decided over and over again that man is the arbiter of Christ's Church and has removed Christ as the headstone. Though advocates for these changes say that the sincerity of their convictions and their consciences should be given the ultimate respect, they should know that even all the great heretics of the church such as Arius, Nestorius, Marcian, Apollinaris, Eutyches, Pelagius, the iconoclasts, etc. were also sincere peole and bound by their conscience, but that did not stop the Church from condemning them and their teachings as heretical.

Tolerance for homosexuals should not only be encouraged but demanded as Christian charity. And such should go for all sinners, but that toleration should not be an endorsement or turning a blind eye to behaviour that is clearly sinful. The ELCA has once again decided that it, not our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, is God and has power of judgment of what is sinful and not.

But perhaps such isn't really the ELCA's fault. Luther himself was bound by his conscience to go against the Roman Catholic Church. I suppose that if one man believed that his interpretation was correct, it should be no surprise that his heirs would make the same appeal to justify anything under the sun. If you don't like something, just appeal to your conscience and form a new church.

Chris, There is no such thing as a true religion. The mere fact that there have always been millions of people around the world fighting about which one is true is testament to this fact. You aren't more faithful because you are a devout Greek Orthodox. The only reason people aren't killing each other in this country because of religious beliefs anymore is because we have laws against it. Every other country has violence caused by religious inferiority complexes. Christianity was as bloody before it was made illegal to kill in America - and we still have Christians killing because of their fears.

Religion does not = God. And Jesus did not have, or write a "Bible."

That doesn't mean your faith isn't important just because it isn't "true" for everyone. Maybe you shouldn't judge people you don't know? Walk in a person's shoes before you judge them. Get to know a gay person and some ELCA pastors before judging them. I don't think Jesus would talk in judgmental ways like you do.

The ELCA have more scholar theologians than the Greek Orthodox Church does though, not that its less because of that, but you're the one who talked about it, and Lutherans usually don't turn easily. They have committees of scholars studying and arguing this and that and the other thing before anything can get done, so the decision was in no way easy. You should get to know people before talking about them. ELCA pastors have to have bachelors degrees and then four year masters degrees and huge amounts of mental health screenings along the way before they can be ordained.
Don't get me wrong they aren't perfect, but at least most of them know it.

Yeah, but what did the Wiccan wing of the ELCA say? I still think those witches are HOT! Unless they are male, then they are just cool.

Cassandra,

First of all the Book of Enoch is canonical Scripture. Second of all, what does the canon have to do with anything that is being discussed here? Nothing. You are sidetracking the argument.

Secondly, this is not my own judgment, but this is the judgment pased down by the Holy Fathers from Christ Himself. The people responsible for this decision have decided that their own beliefs are somehow more enlightened. As far as your accusation that the Holy Fathers were nothing more than chauvinistic, women-hating clowns, I demand you show your proof of that. The onus is on you.

Third, truth is truth. You lack any kind of absolute truth except for the allegiance to your own whim. There is no anchor and you are adrift upon a sea of theological currents which will drown you.

Good thoughts - especially insight about those who are so upset about this decision. I'm struggling to respect their "bound consciences" because they seem so shocked that we seem willing to let them go. The problem I have with this is that if they go it is THEIR CHOICE - gays and lesbians never had a choice...

Oh good gracious ... this happens every time the Bible gets put on the same shelf as the thesaurus and Merriam-Webster. All the wanna-be Jesuits and seekers of ultimate truth get snarky and moody, and I get a headache. I have an idea -- just wait till ya die and see what happens, okay? If there's any really hot Lutheran ministers with terrific hair there, please let us know.

Cassandra,

I have read the Church Fathers, at length, and aside from the unacceptability of women being ordained to the priesthood (which is not chauvinistic, but an argument for a later time), the Church Fathers have never regarded women as "less worthy" of Christ's saving work. How else would you explain their devotion to not only the Theotokos, but also to the great number of women saints and martyrs?

As far as your assertion that Jesus is not mentioned in contemporary records, I'd invite you to read (if you haven't already), Suetonius' Life of Claudius, Tacitus' Annals and Josephus. Granted, they didn't write biographies of Christ but there is enough in there that Christ was definitely real and was known. As far as whehter he is divine, you're going to have to come to that on your own, though it seems you have been taken in by Dan Brown, which is the usual ammunition of academic lightweights.

Why are things no better after 2000 years? Do you honestly have to ask that? It's because we are still sinners. Christ didn't snap his finger and say that everything is going to be perfect now. We still have to work for it. St. Paul (I know you don't like him) wrote for each person to work out his salvation with fear and trembling. The fact is that a great many people do not do this preferring an easier path.

Also, please don't quote Greek to me; I know the language and what it says. But you also forget that Christ said that His Kingdom is not of this earth. So, is it any wonder you are having problems recognizing it?

A postscript...about women...it's nice that you read the statement about women not being preachers (1 Corinthians 14:34) but that wasn't all Paul had to say. He goes on to add that "if there is anything they desire to know they should ask their husbands at home." Earlier in that epistle---Chapter 11 verse three---he says "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."

In other words women are discouraged from thinking for themselves but submit to the (supposedly) greater intelligence and wisdom and spiritual understanding of a man.

All this dates back to the Genesis story where sin came BY WAY of a woman. "The woman that you gave to be with me...SHE tempted me and I did eat." (Typical man, can't even accept responsibility for his own choices).

Look, Chris...you're free to believe what you wish. That is YOUR choice. Everybody else is entitled to the same freedom.

To accept or reject ANY religion. Whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, Wicca, Science...whatever.

Sure science is a religion---with a creation myth all of its own. The Big Bang.
"How did everything begin?" you ask.
"The Big Bang," they say.
"What caused that?" you ask.
"Singularity," they say.
"Where does singularity come from?" you ask.
"A Black Hole," they say, VERY dramatically, with a drum roll and so on.
"Where does a Black Hole come from?" you ask.
And they tell you how a star begins to collapse in on itself...compressing and compressing and compressing becoming first a Neutron star and then (more drums) a BLACK HOLE and then SINGULARITY and then SINGULARITY explodes and you get the universe.
In other words before there was THIS universe there was another universe where a star collapsed etc...etc.
And they haven't answered your original question and hope by this time you're too confused to care.
All religions seem to work that way.

To Cassandra:

I've known many people who were decently educated and in turn try and use that knowledge to prove against spirituality and obediance to the teachings of Jesus and the Father in the scriptures. I understand that being a women and trying to interpret the scriptures may at points seem harsh, but please realize that in no way are these explicit attacks at womenhood. For the most part, they are reflected petitions of behavior for a people at a certain time, with certain understandings (of time, some having changed and some having not). But to take these words, which offer the best guidelines of peaceful living out of any doctrine written, and to trash them simply for a sense that ones womenhood is being attacked (even though it is far from that) that's just not fair and a blinded and one-sided interpretation of what the true intention of the bible is. You're minimializing several carefully constructed words and phrases, carefully chosen, that offer great ideas of living in peace, living in love, seeking peace over evil, love over anger, embracing tolerance yes...but also saying not to accept everything under the sun (read 2 Thessolonians 3:14). I'm a person who once embraced a life of crime, drugs, and sin in general....and i had an awkening unlike most, in my abusing of marijuana i started to be attacked by voices, demons, ghosts, actually to the point of physically being attacked and consistentlly having my sleep interrupted by sleep paralysis where these things would continue to attack me. Now weed is known to cause hallucinating, so take that as you may. But what i know is I randomly met a friend who I told these things too and he advised me to just sleep with a bible under my pillow (not even to read it)....and all that stuff stopped. Of course i eventually began reading the bible, having it so close and over time I've visually seen changes in my life. From a person who actually has seen evil and felt touches and heard voices from things I'd wish on no man, I truly felt the power of the bible, of spirituality...it's more then just an invisible hope. And i just want to close on the decisions that the Lutheran and Episcapol churches are making. I see it as, in todays world we have more opportunities then ever to make ourselves into our own gods, change things according to our own words. I think this should really bring a highlight to the forgoten dichotamy between what is "wordly" and what is "Godly". I ask a question on where the entire gay agenda is stemming from? From a strong moral and throughly thoughtout philosophy? Or from in between our legs (lol our genitals)? Is this not a movement that is purely based on sexual desires....do we not (atleast hopefully) teach our children that you should never base a decision from the itch that you get between your legs? But now these churches see that the brain that sits in our genitals is on par with the doctrine of the bible. Docrtrine that preaches to rise above "wordly" passions. If the scholars truly did take into consideration theological doctrine, they have clearly chosen that the worldly way is better then the Godly way. This is a scary time. God bless.

Hurrah. The bigots are turned back, confused, with loud noises and hot air. Their foundation of ignorance crumbles beneath them.

Retreat! Retreat to ever-shrinking circles of resentment and hatred! Vanish, ultimately, into irrelevance! You will be the amusement of our (10% gay) ancestors.

Faith in the LORD God will get you through the toughest times. After the accident and the TBI that should have killed me,I survived only with the LORD's help. According to medical science, I should be either dead, or in a vegetative state. Praise God, neither is the case!

If any want to play God with their lives, they will not have a good life. If you love God above all else and love your neighor as yourself, as Jesus commanded, life is a lot easier!

Well,
all of this still fails to make me open my mind and heart to Faggots or Lutheranism
or the Big Bang theory.
Seems to me that all of us (myself as well)
should be very happy we are in the U.S.A.

In some nations on earth, people could never get around to even talking about any of this shit.
Let alone make so-called "progress"
ALSO, "GAY RIGHTS"?????
that is something of an oxy-moron here in the U.S.
Ask any Queer from someplace like IRAN or China...

@ End of the World:

Our current economic situation is a pale reflection of the Great Depression that hit in 1929 and which the United States didn't fully recover from until the 1940s. And since that period was one in which gay people had no rights and most people were attending church weekly and everything was very VERY conservative---what was God mad about THEN?

Oh...wait! I know...women got the right to vote in 1920 in the United States and God was just slow in responding.

Or maybe God was punishing America for the "flappers"---those brash young women with bobbed hair and short skirts and a fondness for that evil "jazz" music.

(Yes, before the Devil tried to seduce the youth with rock and roll he invented jazz).

The ONLY way anyone could seriously point to ANYTHING and say "Just proves God is angry at us for---fill in the blank---" is if they had NO knowledge of history whatsoever.

And, as it turns out, most of them don't.
Or not a very accurate one.

"When homosexuality is allowed great civilizations fall" someone else said here.
Not true. Greece (and it's unconquerable warriors the Sacred Band of Thebes---which was composed entirely of same-sex couples in committed relationships) was conquered by Alexander the Great and his Macedonians (who also practiced homosexuality and bi-sexuality) and who WON because they had better weapons. The Theban band died bravely and they died together.
Alexander's father, King Philip, said of the Theban Band: "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly." (Plutarch's Lives).

Rome fell when Christianity was introduced. Homosexuality and bi-sexuality had always been a feature of Roman life.

Suetonius in his LIVES OF THE TWELVE CAESARS commenting on the immense sexual appetite and bi-sexual habits of Julius Caesar reports a remark attributed to Curio, the Elder: "He was every woman's man, and every man's woman."

Julius Caesar was born around 102 BC (or BCE if you want to be politically correct and don't we ALL) was killed by Brutus and the other traitors in 44 BCE (on March 15th---you cn see why the United States changed its Tax Collecton day to April 15th now, can't you--it was originally on March 15th and was often referred to as "the Rides of March" because all citizens felt they had been "taken for a ride" by the Internal Revenue Service). The Roman Empire (which was to include such luminaries as Caligula (whose sexual irregularities and insanity are legendary) Nero (who castrated one of his slaves (Sporus) in an attempt to turn him into a woman and later married Sporus who was de-facto Empress of Rome for several years, Nero married two other men but on those occasions he himself dressed in women's clothes and played the part of the wife). Nero died in 68 AD (ACE).

Constantine---who would eventually become a Christian...became Emperor in 272 AD (ACE) and Rome fell after Christianity became the ONLY religion allowed in the empire which was done by the Emperor Theodosius in 380 AD (ACE).

But every preacher, every political demagogue, and every mindless parrot who follows these types and repeats their drivel will tell you the history of these empires completely in reverse---so they can point to the licentiousness and the homosexuality and the orgies and say THAT'S why they fell.

But they're lying.

Cass "don't bs a bs'er" Morrison

Cassandra,

I see you are a student of Greco-Roman history. I commend you. Unfortunately, your posts are far too general and do not adequately reflect what went on.

The Macedonians triumphed over Thebes and the sacred band not because of better weapons (though the sarissa did make things easier) but because of the hammer and anvil tactics developed by Philip II and perfected by Alexander the Great. Also making the phalanx diamond shaped instead of sqauare shaped was not susceptible to attacks from the side where the square phalanx was most vulnerable.

Homosexuality was not universally accepted in Greece. In many places, the "submissive" in a homosexual relationship could have been put to death, had his citizenship rights revoked and, in Athens, we are told of a particular punishment where the submissive had a radish put you know where.

And the Romans had, of course, their own homosexuality debates. The emperors, such as Tiberius, Caligula and Nero were especially given to males as you documented.

Constantine did not become emperor in 272 A.D. Constantine was proclaimed Augustus by his father's troops in York, Brittania and subsequently marched on Rome, taking it in 311 B.C. at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge against Maxentius.

Your view however that Christianity caused Rome to fall is nothing more than a rehashing of Edward Gibbon's and his view has been discredited by countless years of subsequent historical research since his thesis was first published in 1776. If anything, Rome fell under the pressures of so many people trying to get in to the Empire to partake of the welfare state. Of course, there are numerous causes and no one cause can explain everything, but the Christianity-caused-Rome-to-die view is no longer a valid one.

Does the practice of homosexuality cause civilization to die? By itself, no. So, I will agree with you on that one. But, that does not mean that Christianity should no longer call it sinful because a simple majority of delegates at one denomination's convention decided it to be so.

It's not about Judgement, it is about striving for perfection, as we are called to do. However we know that failure is going to happen in this endevor. But never the less that is our Mission as Christians, and being a Practicing homosexual outside Marrige is described in the Bible as sin. Also in the Bible Marrige is described as a Bond between a Man and a Woman.
I know everyday I Sin and fail in some Manner to serve by things I have done, or things I have left undone. But I do not wake up in the morning planning on sinning going against God and the teachings in the Bible, but I do. So I strive and fail but I do not wake against God. I do not want my Pastor, who in my thoughts, if a practicing homosexual, is against God in the Morning and plans to be in the afternoon. So as it says, if you not for God, you are against him. Not striving do do his will, but as example leading a Life of Sin. PLEASE not be my Pastor.

I'm beginning to hate words.