Here's what happens when you bring a gun to the police station [VIDEO]

Categories: Police

palmerdisarms.jpg
No guns allowed at police headquarters.
Joel Rosenberg tried to bring a gun into the Minneapolis Police headquarters and the cops wouldn't let him.

Now Rosenberg is accusing the cop who took his gun of assault.

Earlier this month, Rosenberg, who says he is a science fiction writer and handgun instructor, paid a visit to the MPD chief's office to pick up some documents he'd requested. Sgt. William Palmer, the public information officer, saw that Rosenberg was packing, and asked him to dump the gun. Rosenberg refused. He insisted he had the right to wear his gun.

Palmer explained that a court order prevented him from carrying the gun. Rosenberg disagreed.

So Palmer physically took the gun away from Rosenberg and unloaded the cartridge. He handed it back when Rosenberg agreed to put the gun in his car.

Here's a video of what happened. Warning: all the action takes place in the first minute or so. After that, it is a deathly boring clip of a desk.

Palmer said he couldn't comment specifically on this case because of ongoing investigations.

"There is a District Court order and a state law stating that weapons cannot be brought into a building containing a courthouse or jail," he wrote in an e-mail. "Its not an MPD thing."

But Rosenberg has a different interpretation of that court order.

"That order is unconstitutionally overly broad," he says. "The judge can control what happens in her courtroom. She's not allowed to define things that aren't part of the court as part of the court. Her authority extends only to the courtrooms in City Hall. The outer portion of Chief Dolan's office is not even arguably a courtroom."

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44 comments
Lie Isbad
Lie Isbad

I forgot. All you and these other freaks that want to prove a point and upload videos to the internet so you can promote yourself are just setting the stage for a federal or state law that bans guns from more places. If you were really interested in public safety and freedom you would purposely walk in to a police station and cause a problem. What if you got in there and started to get mad and shot an officer. Or you got mad and put your hand on your weapon that wasn't secured well in a holster and the cop had to shot you to protect his and others life? Stop using police as a tool to promote your pathetic self. Drop any charges and go say sorry to the public and the police you fat old pathetic and horrible author of crap you copied from others work.

Lie Isbad
Lie Isbad

Is it illegal to video tape and audio record inside of a building in your state. In mine you can if you are taping from a point of view of the public. If you are in a closed door you are no longer in the view of the public even if it is a public building. Get a life. You should be jailed for wasting police time and being an idiot

Ralf from the FRG
Ralf from the FRG

I am sorry - to put a handgun AND ammunition in an unsupervised car..?

OK, for European standards, that seems to me a little bit risky... are there no minimal security standards on how firearms must be stored in vehicles?

This should be a factual question, I really do not know. However, I would suffer from quite a high adrenaline concentration if I had to leave a loaded weapon in an unsupervised vehicle.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Yeah Hellbent, or Joel could go bankrupt put his family on the street and go straight to prison, and with any luck he will learn how to deal with society and wont get killed in prison . Let's hope justice really is blind and the jury can weed through all the harassment, stalking, and trying to get people fired and arrested. The best part about all of this is he has final shut his mouth. For now.

Hellbent
Hellbent

@jackThe truth is that a lot of people are going to be frustrated and wondering "how the hell" when this over. These people work for the city and county.

jack
jack

@Majority_Spokesperson: Actaully Joel lost a lot of memebers when him and his spokesman were caught reading members pm's, because of paranoia. Thay is how MNguntalk came about where they all went.

And a lot of people i know who carry every day, dont give a damn what Joel does as everyone belives he is a hamburger short of a big mac. Lets face it, in your opinion the sun rises shines and set out of Joels ass, and i am sure there are a few people who agree with you and your opinion.

But the truth is plain and out there, that joel is paranoid and a cop basher, just ask the peeps on Guntalk and they will confirm all the paranoia and its my ball and all the games he plays.

Boo Who
Boo Who

I know a lot of real permit holders think this is fueled by his delusional fascinations of people that he feels have somehow wronged him. The man needs help. If the true reason for all of this was to question the court order that could have been done without all his craziness and maybe by someone that doesn't have ulterior motives, and mental health issues.

Majority_Spokesperson
Majority_Spokesperson

@Jack Actually, he lost %100 of the members of his forum, when he decided to shut it down.

Additionally, real permit holders and real instructors, not phonies walking tall on forums and comment boards, see eye-to-eye with Rosenberg in that the MPD is way out of line. Palmer needs to go. We need to burn him down, and slap the city's face for our kids' sake.

Wendy Weinbaum
Wendy Weinbaum

As a Jewess in the US, I have a QUESTION: Did the "cop" have a gun? Yes, you say? But I thought they were PROHIBITED in Courthouses! So guns ARE allowed in there, after all, you say?

Anonymous
Anonymous

You have to asks yourself, is this guys health going to hold out till the big pay day? This has to add a little stress to the guys life. 50 something smoker, diabetic, over weight. Its going to take it's toll I'm sure.

bob
bob

i have to thank joel for standing up for our rights, i cant afford to be a test case and the fact that hes potentially throwing away alot of money, for nothing more then to make sure we dont get stepped on.... thank you joel!

jack
jack

I some how think that there are not 77,000 permit holders who are interested in what the clown/bully Rosenberg does. I myself know several permit holders that are not fans of Joelr. There is a reason why the grandiose moron lost 90% of the members to his board.

It is well known around the carry community that Joel is disliked, paranoid and an big bully. He has gone after publicly humiliating other instructors over the price they charge for classes which are cheaper than him. And the list goes on and on. If you are not a fan of Joel's he will come after you, and has even gone as far as trying to get people fired from their jobs, and we are talking about regular people who ran afoul of him on his board.

But this could not have happened to a nicer guy, he is definitely getting what he has had coming for a long time now.

mvpel
mvpel

Typical cop - swagger into a legal dead end and just keep plowing ahead regardless of the consequences. Is an enormous ego a job requirement, or does it just help?

Ben
Ben

However, arresting an honest, responsible citizen for failing to realize that the whole building, not just the courtrooms, was forbidden territory...

It's not a failure to realize something that just ain't so.

The office of the Minneapolis Police chief is not a) a courtroom, b) a courthouse, c) part of a "courthouse complex," d) a "court facility," nor e) under the control of the Hennepin County District Court.

But even if it were, as Joel has said, the law only forbids who have not notified the sheriff of their intent to carry from carrying in a courthouse.

Which, again, the chief's office is not. Not even a little.

Catherine Jefferson
Catherine Jefferson

Joel Rosenberg didn't just "claim to" be a science fiction and fantasy author. He's a well-known and well-respected author with something like two dozen published books and a number of other publication credits. I've read and enjoyed several of those books.

Here's his Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

I also have a concealed carry permit and normally carry a firearm. I'd have left it at home or with my husband if I were at City Hall for some reason; Nevada (where I live) bans concealeed carry in government buildings. However, arresting an honest, responsible citizen for failing to realize that the whole building, not just the courtrooms, was forbidden territory sounds to me like at best a severe overreaction. I'm shaking my head at the whole situation. :/

Since Joel appears to be "here" answering people's questions, I'll let him go over any specifics. Just wanted to give him a wave in Cyberspace -- Joel, this is Ariel from GEnie and SFFNet. :-)

Argus
Argus

This is the entire problem with (some of) our cities police forces...

They make up the laws as they see fit, using them to justify assault, illegal detention, harassment, any number of things an average guy would go to jail for-for the sole purpose of fighting crime, as they put it.

Minneapolis is still a shit hole. Your odds of getting mugged downtown are higher than anywhere else in the state-and yet they punish the law-abiding.

We who carry know the laws. We make it a point to. There's no doubt in my mind that officer friendly here was either willfully ignorant, or had a surplus of testosterone and needed to kick a few doors (metaphorically speaking) to make himself feel better.

More's the pity. Behavior like this only serves to alienate the good guys. The guys who want to feel safe as they pump their gas, or pay for their groceries... the guys who want to walk in the park or go for a bike ride without being assaulted... These are the guys the cops should be reaching out to. Embracing, and looking to for community support (at least in the court of public opinion).

I, for one, don't go into the cities without being armed-and if I do, there's no place I feel safer than either Frontiersman in St. Louis Park or Bills Gun Shop in Robbinsdale.

Excercising your right to carry isn't for everyone, I can appreciate that (*I mean, look at the whack-job lefty in Wisconsin who shot his TV because of Bristol Palin)... but the world would be a much safer and politer place if people excercised that right.

The other little bit of irony here is that a lot of posters on this particular site will get "up in arms" over some rocket scientist who, upon jumping off a two story wall, learns he can't fly and dies on the highway on ramp. "The police did it!" "They shouldn't have chased him." "It was a conspiracy!"

Yet the same crowd is slobbering all over themselves to defend the same police force when a man takes a common-sense step to protect himself and his family.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

MS: true. Except among the badgelicker set, sure.

Majority_Spokesperson
Majority_Spokesperson

From the buzz around town and on the web it sure looks like Rosenberg has the folks in his camp.

JR
JR

You sir a complete idiot, a worthless piece of shit!

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

"What the slimly little Ferengi says is unimportant; we do not hear his words."

Rob
Rob

point taken Bill.

David Foureyes
David Foureyes

Yeah! That votes libertarian! Suck it liberal elite media socialist....uh...college educated...well read...fuck, where were we going with this? Oh right, that you guys are scared morons...

Grow a pair...they'll be the things pressing your holster into your fat gut the next time you reach across yourself to lock the doors on your Silverado when you see a black person.

Joel, you may want to think about keeping better company if you want to make your point...or keep your multiple personalities in check.

Bill
Bill

Rob, don't even bother with Foureyes. On a scale of 1 to 10 of being worth a shit, he lands somewhere around -34. He is your typical assclown citypages liberal douchebag.

Rob
Rob

"I've met two" (out of 78,000)

Seems like a good enough sample to form an educated opinion.

David Foureyes
David Foureyes

Meme? It would appear you have no idea what that word means you old fart.

When I meet a person that carries a firearm with them in public that isn't unhinged, I'll re-evaluate my stance that they are pussies. I've met two: I stand by my evaluation.

Andrew
Andrew

For sure the most egregious thing the MPD has ever done -- politely ask a white man to keep his handgun in the car. This is the most outrageous hidden camera video I've seen since two upper-class college students pretended to wear prostitute-and-pimp Halloween costumes into an Acorn office and acted like the workers there actually thought they were in the sex-work business.

Greg
Greg

What Foureyes doesn't know, among many other things, is that about 77,000 Carry Permit holders give a shit about the issue. But he's too invested in his "paranoid gun nut" meme to pay much attention.

Pity!

David Foureyes
David Foureyes

Lesson: Only a science fiction writer has such an embarrassment of time he can waste it trying to make a point no one gives a shit about because the person the rest of us don't trust with a gun is he.

Joel should write a book about it, "How I'm scared of shit I have no control over and why it makes sense...somehow: The Joel Rosenberg Story"

Frank
Frank

Jennifer, what do you call an unlawful court order? I'd call it null.

And Palmer knows it too. That's why he didn't actually enforce it. He just tried to bluff it.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

One last thing: as Bill Palmer knows, City Hall isn't even the issue. Not only do I have the right to carry in the HC courthouse -- I've given notice to the sheriff, repeatedly, as most recent as last month -- but I have the permission of the Sheriff's Office.

And, if necessary, I can and will prove it in a court of law.

No shit.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

"Joel Rosenberg, who says he's a science fiction writer..."

Well, there's this intertube thingee called "wikipedia" that says I am; there's another intertube watchamacallit, amazon.com, that says I am; my publishers -- Tor, Avon, Bean, NAL, Penguin, erc. over the years, not to mention my various overseas publishers, say that I am. And there's this Google thing that says that I am.

The City Pages, though, bravely refuses to take a stand on this terribly, terribly important issue -- whether or not I'm an SF writer -- and instead, merely reports that I say that I am.

Not okay, Erin. Strong language to follow.

David Foureyes
David Foureyes

"Ignatius Reilly? Is that you?"

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

He even looks like how I've imagined the dolt to appear!

Rob
Rob

"Also why set up the camera. (sic) Was this all just you causing a scene to make a point."

I literally have hours of video and audio of police and public interactions that have no significance at all. Those recordings may have been very useful if an issue arose.

Especially with the propensity that the MPD has for conveniently "forgetting" details, I would have had 2 cameras, and 3 audio recorders going with any interaction with them. It's just smart.

"But there was clearly no reason for you to be carrying that gun into the police station."While I would feel sufficiently protected in the station itself, it's still a long walk from the closest parking areas... Unless the police offered an escort to and from my vehicle, I see plenty of reason to be carrying.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

Now, that's funny, Matt -- you don't know any of the facts, don't listen to the audio, don't browse to the website, but you "know" stuff. Do you work for the Star Tribune, or did you come by your deliberate ignorance genetically?

Michael
Michael

I'll admit I didn't listen to the audio, but it just looked like two beer bellies shaking back and forth.

Joel, taking your health seriously and dealing with your upper body obesity, something that is guaranteed to kill you, would server you better in the long run than carrying a gun in the off chance you might need to use it.

Also why set up the camera. Was this all just you causing a scene to make a point.

And I'm not some anti gun guy either. I'm a proud hand gun owner myself. But there was clearly no reason for you to be carrying that gun into the police station.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

And one more thing: if Palmer actually believed I was breaking the law, he would have arrested me, as he repeatedly threatened to. It's not like we're buddies; I'm the guy who called his bluff when he demanded money from me before starting to do his job on my MGDPA requests.

He was bluffing, again, because he and his department are in trouble on one false arrest right now, and don't need to make it worse on themselves.

And he knows it.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

No, Jennifer, I'm not trying to tell you that I wasn't supposed to be carrying my "deadly weapon" in the building; I'm telling you quite the opposite.

Thanks for allowing me to correct your misapprehension, and do say hi to the rest of the folks in Chief Dolan's office, y'hear?

milan33
milan33

Ignatius Reilly? Is that you?

Jennifer
Jennifer

I saw no assault. I saw a police officer enforcing a court order.

Seriously, Mr. Rosenberg? You're going to wear a gun into a police department office, and then try to tell us it's an "assault" when the nice cop takes away your deadly weapon that you weren't supposed to be carrying in the building anyway?

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

Your title is not correct. That's what happened when I lawfully carried my handgun into the police station.

Kids: this man is an expert. Don't try this at home. You'd probably get jumped and thumped by the devoted civil servants of the Minneapolis Police Department, if you were lucky.

If you weren't, you'd get shot dead. By the devoted civil servants of the Minneapolis Police Department. (Pity you can never find a cop around when you need one.) Yours wouldn't be the first innocent blood on their hands; so don't do what I did�I don't want your blood on mine.

Strong language to follow.

Joel Rosenberg
Joel Rosenberg

You're quite right: after the assault, the clip is incredibly boring. And when I published it, in full, on YouTube, among other places, I was ready for that accusation, to which I plead utterly and willfully guilty.

What it isn't, though, is edited. It's the full clip, from when I turned the camera on, to when I turned the camera off, to download it to my computer, and then immediately upload it to servers outside the control of the Minneapolis Police Department.

liam
liam

very unusual in that the MPD officer didn't beat him to a bloody pulp & then lie about it in his report. That seems to be standard protocol for them.

thespillmonkey
thespillmonkey

@Lie Isbad  I am not 100% defending this man, but "what if you got mad and shot someone".... Do you think people that wish to defend themselves are cartoons or incapable of rational thought? There is no "getting mad and shooting someone". A responsible citizen who carries knows to NEVER even reach for their weapon unless being threatened with grievous bodily harm. 

thespillmonkey
thespillmonkey

@Ralf from the FRG As far as the storage goes, it is ok as long as there are proper lock boxes in place (depends on the state). I know that I personally have secured lock boxes in my vehicle that allow me to separate ammo and firearms in a legal fashion if I must leave them in the truck (like if i had to go into a post office - a federal building)

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