Lil' Flip: "Y'all f@#ked it up tonight, Minneapolis"

• I'm not white, I'm not black, I'm just....brown, yes a mix......AND I DON'T DISCRIMINATE, I HATE ALL! After I read the comments to this post I now pronounce The USA as the World capital of retardness! But if you look at the bright side, you're about 300 million Americans huh? That amount, should generate a sh*t load of "errors" ....just find it funny that these "errors" have learned to spell, argue and use computers and internet! Lil Flip's - Holla Back CD in stores now! Cop that!

• Pete, great list! There are a few more excuses to shake your liver over the week: Mardi Gras at Jax Sunday, February 26th annual Mardi Gras brunch. The well known Sunday Brunch takes on the flavors of New Orleans complete with music by the Minnesota Dixieland Trio and all the beads and masks you could imagine. The brunch is $25.95 for adults and $10.95 for children 10 and under. The first seating is at 10:00am and the last at 2:00pm. Offerings include: Hot Table Omelettes to Order Scrambled Eggs Florentine Eggs Commander Andouille Sausage and Creole special menu items � Jax Cafe is located at 1928 University Avenue NE Minneapolis; 20 blocks north of East Hennepin between Broadway and Lowry Avenues NE. And to guarantee a Loathsome Wednesday, check out the Fat Tuesday Party at Liquor Lyle's-6 pm-close February 28, EMI Special Music release Party 6- 8 pm The night includes beads, masks, prizes, Creole food specials. �Events Mardi Gras Brunch Valentine's Day 2006 > Join Jax's Email List <

• Is The Quest still closed? We tried going to DJ Icey's thing tonight but it said they were temporarily closed... Physically and emotionally!

• wit?

• Hey DC! I'm totally wit you on this one. Hip-hops here to stay an there aint nottin nobody gonna do to change it!The intelligent way you express yourself shows alot on the facts of research and things you've looked up on...unlike others postin there shit to knock everyone else on here. You got it in my aspect. Keep it for reals! And long live HIP HOP FOO's

• I never said disliking rap is a mask for fear. I asked you to consider the possibility that using this blog as propaganda against rap (and so making generalizations about rap, and its audience, and this particular audience at the Quest) could be a way of rationalizing fear. Those are very different things. I don't like "boy bands," for instance. But I didn't use the riot that happened when B5 appeared at a mall to try to tell people that boy-band culture is flawed. That's just silly. There's far too much rap music out there to say it's all one thing. By the way, I don't know if I've ever liked a rap song that brags about jewelry.

• as a cover for my "fear?" Look, I do not and never have bought any hip hop or rap. Here's why. I don't want to pay money to hear a bunch of guys who can't play musical instruments or sing yell about their jewelry and their sex lives over a drum machine while somebody does sound effects in the back. That's all it is. Fear? The whole genre sounds stupid to me whether it's done by white people, black people, Hispanic people, or Asian people. I've never heard any hip hop that I liked or thought was worth listening to more than twice. The "music" is boring, it's dull, it's repetitive, it's irritating and it's unimaginative. Fear has nothing to do with it.

• The person who said they can't wait till hip hop has it's days like disco is an idiot. Disco lated about 5 years. Hip Hop has been around for 25 years. I don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon. I would however like for all of the commercial cRap to go away.

• White People: (Some of yahll) Sick of Hip-Hop and tired of all these rappers spouting off about violence and poverty? Do something about it. Realize that rap is a business and like most businesses in America it is ran by your counterparts. Hip-hop began as a way for young black people to express themselves and have a voice for their issues. The great white hopes made it a commercialized wheel that keeps turning out more ignorance everyday. So, if you want to change things then try going to see hip-hop artists who are about something positive. (The majority of them are and they're not hard to find). Support those types of artist and start spending your money there and watch what happens. The so-called hip-hop artists that you see in the mainstream are basically actors. They aren't 'hood' or 'street' and they most certainly aren't 'down'. Most of us realize that it is not real. They're moneymaking puppets that your kids seem to love. Kinda like those monkeys that you insert a quarter into and they clap their cymbals for you. If you support the artists who are about something and let the powers that be know the truth is what you wanna hear maybe the tide will turn and what is shown will be what hip-hop is really about. Positivity. But don't arbitrarily label hip-hop is being anything one thing if you're not willing to step in and make a change. It's become a business. Supply and demand. You and yours are perpetuating this negative turn hip-hop has taken because 70% of the dollars spent on this music is from white kids. Do you think they'd make it if you weren't buying it? And if it reverted back to its original form and purpose would you buy it then? Cause the truth can hurt a bit even if it is good for you. I don't wanna hear most of the crap that is played in the mainstream and most black people don't either. I grew up in hip-hop and it ain't goin' nowhere! Ya heard? But, we can change the direction of it. Become a part of the solution instead of just talking about it. Support the positive artists. Go see some of those folks and then post something uplifting on their message board instead of taking the easy shot and bashing the few ignorant folks that were at the concert. (black and white) Black people........what I said up there....for the most part applies to you as well. Peace

• I LOVE violence at concerts and soccer games and high school football games and lawyers getting shot at by their clients and the drunk white guy at ZETAfest in fl just running 'round punching people until security beat the crap out of him, and rap lyrics like "I didn't even have to use my AK, I'd have to say it was a good day" indicating a regular NEED to use said weapon mixed with a desire not to use it, and those white kids I saw in Salt Lake city yelling at the scared black kid, and the rednecks that called me a fag in Alabama because my hair was long, and the black guys in Minneapolis itself who chastised me on how I was oppressing my wife who was simply walking next to me, and basically every single incident of intolerance, distrust, impatience, greed, self-importance and fear that i hear of, I JUST LOVE ALL OF IT! Because, it proves we will never evolve beyond this point. There is no way it will ever happen for the species. Some of us may rise above and see beyond race and religion and sexpref and politics and achieve a Siddhartha deal where we giggle all day in our own selfish rapture, but as a whole, this is where it stops folks. This is the end point. These are the end times. The world is going to hell, paint it any color you want. And this is not hopelessness. Hopelessness is trying to fix it. Chaos is our birthright. Lap it up zombies. If you think you are 'right' on any side of any of these issues, you are part of the problem, but don't stop because we need you to keep being that way. giggle giggle guffaw guffaw.

• Since we can not call it black culture, how about urban culture. Rap/Hip Hop fans and defenders I hope you realize that the top sellers in this music genre are talkng about a total lack of uncivilized culture. It doesn't start with poverty, there are many poor Hispanic,Asian, White etc., that are not carrying guns to a concert. And that is because there is no need to protect themselves, or in the case of Quest attack someone. When we as a community start to blame other factors for this, we look and sound foolish. Who cares who is buying this garbage, it makes white kids think they can "beat our bitches," and "pimp our hoes," and "blow that nigga away," and they are mocking us in the process. Grow up, get a job and accept responsbility.

• Why is everybody at each others' throats? Violence happens everywhere, all the time. It shouldn't be grouped because of skin color. Murder is murder, rape is rape, and figths are fights. The people who commit these crimes don't do it because they are black, white,poor,or rich. They do it becuase they have a screw loose and it makes them feel good. We really should find a solution, instead of trying to blame each other for the problem.

• "Shotgun, bitch!"

• News...fantastic post. First off, thanks for satirically complementing my vocabulary and diction while making a grammatical error on your own. Bravo. Secondly, I am white. It's funny that you assumed that post was written by a "Malcolm X" type. I'm fortunate enough to come from a wealthy white family, so I would argue pretty strongly that neither my background nor my mentality are in line with him- and that's coming from someone who's read a great deal about the man. How much have you read about him, you bearer of absolute truth you? It's also interesting that you assume I blame "the white man" for these problems. Education and poverty are factors; unfortunately, so is the willingness of some in the black community to continue this type of behavior because they feel it is admirable. If you had actually read my post and considered it, you would have noted few things. First off, the examples I gave were specifically of rock CONCERTS. It's interesting how you, as many who criticize hip hop do, juxtapose two things that have nothing to do with one another (and by that I mean your comparison of arrests in hip hop for weapons, which has nothing to do with concert violence, to violence at rock shows). A lot of the other readers on this site probably can't see through this straw man argument, but I'm not having it. You really want to compare drug arrests of rock stars and hip hop artists? How many rappers have been arrested in recent years (let's say ten) for possession of heroin? One. How many rockstars have? A lot more than one my friend. I'm going to assume from the politics evident in your post that you are anti-marijuana, but perhaps I am wrong on this one. If you actually study arrests of rap artists for drug posession, it is almost always for pot, a drug which should be legalized in the first place...but I digress from the issue at hand. You go on to assail me in your post for denying that hip hop has a significant violent element. Did I do that? If you think I did, you simply didn't read my post, so I suggest you go do that. I fully admit that there is an all too large element of violence promotion in rap. The problem is, though, is that in just the same way that some rock songs are satirical (which I did know- you'll see my point in bringing it up in a second, because apparently you didn't take the time to read my follow up to the post which so enraged you), almost all hip hop songs promoting violence come from rappers who are, as they become entertainers, extremely far from being violent themselves as they claim to in their songs. Why is this important? Because almost all hip hop fans know this. It is no different than watching the movie Scarface or an equally thrilling violent drama, as both the watcher, in the case of film, and the listener, in the case of rap, knows it is NOT REAL. The problem arises when a few idiots interpret songs like Jay-Z's "Threats" seriously, and not as a mere reflection of a lot of the things that he has seen over the course of his life, or has heard about second hand. Similarly, if you don't think there are people who took the Dead Kennedy's record seriously, you are simply denying reality. On another note, Jay does not promote rape. Don't even bring that shit to me. And in case you aren't aware of it, oh musical scholar, there are rock songs which do the very thing you accuse Jay of doing right there. I also love your stereotypical casting of blacks as those who buy only rims and guns. Again, it says a lot about your exposure to different types of people and cultures growing up and currently. While a lot of blacks do this, many more don't. And even for those who do, your point is completely benign. Do you know how much the average pair of rims costs? Less than 1/25th of one year of a private college education. Out the water... Again, you clearly just misunderstood, and in my mind, made a subsconcious or conscious attempt to vilify and demean what I was saying. My problem here, and the reason I posted on this board today, is to respond to people who use things like this Lil Flip concert to generalize hip hop and black culture as a whole. What's funny is Lil Flip himself was ashamed about this incident and I can tell you without doubt that when pretty much everyone in the rap community heard about this today- from Jay to Common- there was one reaction; "Why are we still doing this?" The VAST majority of the hip hop community does not support the events at this concert and we're ashamed of them. But what's even more disheartening is that more than 145 years after the end of slavery, and more than 40 years after the civil rights acts, people such as yourself continue to perpetuate the myth of a monolithic black race based on events such as these. As Chris Rock said in 1996: "There are black people, and there are niggers. Man, I hate niggers with a passion. But I love black people." I doubt you have seen Bring the Pain (the standup where this line comes from), and I have even more doubts about your ability to both understand and accept what he's saying. But whether you want to admit it or not, the black community and hip hop has changed, and we (as in hip hop, not the black community, as I can't speak for it, although I do know the stances of my black friends on the issue) refuse to put up with the stereotyping of our culture due to unfortunate accidents such as these. Its 2005. Being racist was never okay, but at least in the 1850 you could chalk it up to being a product of the times. You, unfortunately, are simply a product of the past.

• Anyone who says rap is glorified by the ghetto has obviously never been to a suburban high school. Mainstream white kids listen to rap and hip hop, the more violent, profane and sexual the better. Living in the ghetto, you don't need to listen to songs about hookers, you can see them on the corner. A pimp isn't the guy in the Rolls, he's the guy in the old busted Vic, more money in his teeth than his house. Poverty isn't the power base of rap and hip hop, it's mainstream America. White kids wanting an edge, or to tick off their parents, or whatever else they're looking for .. they buy the CDs. Violence happens at metal shows (Just ask Damageplan ... oh wait, you can't ask most of it) pop concerts and high school football games. People take guns into shopping malls (Tacoma), schools and their workplaces. Violence is not reflective of hip hop culture, it is reflective of American culture. Hip hop may glamorize violence, but so does metal and so does country (both of which have a litany of songs dedicated to revenge). Violence does not exist in a vacuum, nor does hip hop. Does rap glorify violence? Sure it does, usually. It'd be asinine to say otherwise. But so do cartoons, movies, books and hey, even parents who plop their kids down in front of the Xbox to play Call of Duty, giving the kids no historical perspective as to why they're killing all those guys in the gray. Of course, I could just be crazy

• we fear what we dont understand...some of you astound me with your ignorance.

• Shooting Outside Lil' Flip Concert = Barbaric Melting Flesh off Iraqi Kids with White Phosphorus = Civilized You = Foolio

• By the way, we're up to at least ten posts deleted for outright racist content. You learn something old every day.

• Thanks for the proofreading--it's corrected above.

• "Ladies and gentlemen, YOU'RE evening at the Quest is over." I'll do you with my proofreader bitch! Proofread bitch! PROOFREAD!!!!!

• Public Enemy Common The Roots Talib Kweli Dead Prez Tribe Called Quest De La Soul MF Doom Atmosphere(not to mention a whole lot more local acts) Bubba Sparxx Murs Kanye West Pharrell just to name a few artists who make no mention of drug dealing, hoes, or violence...get educated If people on here are seriously implying that hip-hop is driving inner-city violence, well I'm sorry, life is going to be rough on you (or it already might be, you just don't know it yet).

• DC- Despite you vocabulary your argument still holds no truth. Sadly, the qoutes and examples you used were from the past 40 years, allow me to emphasize that, 40 YEARS. Hip hop violence is a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly issue (i.e the recent fatal shooting at 50 cents movie premiere, C Murder's murder conviction, and too numerous to name drug and weapon arrests). Rap music commonly glorifies a life style ridden with drug dealing and gang life. Jay Z may have raised money for Katrina relief (but really, who didn't), but he is also self admittedly a former crack dealer and makes frequent refrences promoting rape, murder, and drug sales in ALL of his music. The modicum of "community services" he has rendered does not account for the hundreds and thousands of lives he has influenced in a negative manner. To even be debating that hip hop is a culture permeated by violence and drug sales/use is ridiculous. Blaming the violence that plagues that community on poverty is absurd. They have money to afford chrome rims and guns do they not? Saying this is some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by white culture is a completely erroneus statement. It is clear that you are a terribly misinformed, ignorant and above all racist person who can not take responsibility for the actions of his people. Also, the Dead Kennedy's song "Kill the poor" [You mean "I Kill Children"? -Ed.] is satirical. If you had properly researched your facts before making wild assumptions and accusations you would have known that. It's truly sad that people such as yourself are so involved blaming other races and cultures that you can't see that it is in fact hip hop that is strangling your culture, not, as you claim, "the white man". I suggest you take a more objective approach in the future. Your Malcom X approach is see-through and above all ineffective against those who know the facts. I recommend taking an objective look at the list of murdered rappers and hip hop/rap related violence in the past decade alone and then try to have a leg to stand on in this battle you are losing.

• Smack my bitch up was/is Kool Keith's line. He just lent it to prodigy for that stupid song.

• Pete, Point taken that the majority of the people at the Flip show were black, I don't doubt that, but my point was simply that the people posting were making it seem like black inner-city people were the only ones that were propogating the violence and misogeny associated with hip-hop music, and it was a reflection of them. I would argue that if suburban kids weren't so drawn to the lure of violence and gangs, and didn't exert their spending power on it, we might, and I emphasize MIGHT, not have the whole world thinking gangsta rap first, when hip-hop is brought up.

• To focus merely on the violence of hip-hop is absurd. It would be like talking about college hockey and how it is only about fighting, or it only incites rich white college kids to flip over and burn cars, loot liquor stores, smash windows, and beat the shit out of their peers - even when their team wins! Violence happens everywhere. It crosses all boundaries of race and class. For the "poor" black man who shot another black man, there's a white man who's poisoning an entire city's water supply because pollution laws are more lax in a third-world country. Those of you white folks blameing it on race would do well to remember the holocaust, or your ancestors' effect on American Indians. Do yourselves and everyone else a favor and quit watching your local news! Get involved in your community, and shit, maybe even read a book or two.

• This is what happens when people don't have God in their lives. You have to live your faith, not just talk about it, and the cross has nothing to do with jewelry, but about Jesus. It saddens me when I see porn stars and thugs with crosses around their necks.

• I once heard that "Baby Doc" Duvalier loved "Kill the Poor" but that was probably a punk urban myth.

• "Thanks, DC, but that Dead Kennedys song was pretty obviously ironic, just FYI. And "Smack My Bitch Up" was by Prodigy. Squire, the whole "gangsta rap caters to white kids" thing is a half-truism. There were very few whites at the show (though the only guy to give me any static was, in fact, white)." You're right, that was by prodigy. The Dead Kennedys song was ironic, I don't disagree with you. The only point I would try to make is that there's a lot of the same talk in hip hop that isn't to be taken seriously either...in fact anyone who knows about any of these mainstream rappers knows they aren't killing anything. The problem is, when young kids hear this stuff, they don't get it all the time. I have no doubt there are people out there who took the DK song seriously and didn't realize the irony in it, just as a lot of people do with hip hop. Just my thoughts.

• Thanks, DC, but that Dead Kennedys song was pretty obviously ironic, I think. And "Smack My Bitch Up" was by Prodigy. Squire, the whole "gangsta rap caters to white kids" thing is a half-truism. There were very few whites at the show (though the only guy to give me any static was, in fact, white). Sometimes competing truths co-exist: You can't paint an entire audience with one brush. But you can't ignore the influence of gangs and violence on poor youth in tough parts of town. It affects what they rap about, too. Go buy a bunch of local CDs at Digital City Music on Broadway and you'll see what I mean. Jeff Chang just this year did a good job of establishing hip hop's roots in New York gangs, and the peace treaties among them in the early '70s. Gangsters have been in the mix of hip-hop culture, and vice versa, ever since. For many b-boys and their modern equivalents, hip hop was a way of staying out of gangs. But there's always a gangster or three at your typical rap event catering to the urban core. Most of them know how to act. As KRS-One put it back in '88, "Real bad boys move in silence." I didn't start going to hip-hop shows until the mid-'80s, in Madison, Wisconsin. But older heads from bigger cities tell me the difference between hip-hop/go-go/inner city music events in the '70s, and from the late '80s onward, was in large part due to the changing nature of gangs. As the market for crack cocaine exploded, gangs became more nationally organized, more regimented, and more violent. Another related factor in Minneapolis was the influx of people from tougher cities--I talked to at least a couple fans at the Quest show who blamed Chicago south siders for the increase in gun violence since the '80s. (There's another generalization that plenty of kids will take issue with.) The cure for generalizing is just talking to people. I did a lot of that for my 2004 oral history of Twin Cities hip hop, which you can read here: <a href="http://citypages.com/databank/25/1237/article12383.asp" rel="nofollow">http://citypages.com/databank/25/1237/article12383.asp</a>

• ok dc that was way too freakin long. nobody wants to read that crap

• "I love all the people trying to use the excuse "But sometimes, violence happens at white rock shows too..." Shut up. You know damn well your hip hop "community" glorifies violence, killing, degradation of women, drugs etc. and refocusing the blame onto "white" people isn't helping your case. It only goes to show how big of tools the majority of hip hop fans are. And Dimebag Darrell was killed by a mentally ill lone gunman. I'm a part time bouncer for a club and the violence in rock and metal shows does not even COMPARE to that at hip hop shows. Nice try, though. " Word? "A concert held by the group "Guns N' Roses" (July 2, 1991 in St Louis, Missouri) ended when the enraged mob of 2500 youths staged a riot, resulting in 60 of their numbers being injured. The journal Rolling Stone informed that the participants in this concert, "developed into a furious uncontrollable mob, hurling bottles, destroying seats, ripping apart bushes, breaking and setting fire to instruments... This riot continued for over an hour before a squad of special police arrived to restore order. (Rolling Stone, Aug. 22, 1975 p 15). This type of violence is far from being an isolated incident." "In 1969 the Rolling Stones at a rock concert performed the song "Sympathy for the Devil" � there was a rampage of violence and some people were severely injured and some were killed. Mick Jagger stated: "something like that happens every time I play that song." Some forms of rock were associated with outbreaks of riots and violence. The Mamas and the Papas stated: "By carefully controlling the sequence of rhythms, any rock group can create audience hysteria consciously and deliberately... We know how to do it... Anybody knows how to do it." " "KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Beginning our news this morning in Denmark, where concert promoters say the show will go on today despite the deadly events last night at a performance by the rock band Pearl Jam. At least eight fans were crushed to death as the crowd surged toward the stage." "There's a long and ugly history of violence at rock concerts going back at least to 1969, when a fan was stabbed to death at a Rolling Stones concert in California. Ten years later, you may remember, 11 people died during a show by the Who in Cincinnati, Ohio. Fans were rushing for the best seats at an open-seating venue. Then last year, 54 people were trampled to death and 150 were injured at an open air rock concert at the Bellorussian capital, Minsk" I think its time you shut the fuck up. You're a bouncer? That's fantastic man. A job which clearly requires intellectual capacity and the ability to think critically about things. I've been to hundreds of concerts as a part time A&R for a major label and the violence at hip hop and rock shows is equally prevalent. On a larger level, so many of you are just unbelievably ignorant on this subject matter. What's hilarious to me is that a lot of you are ignorant, racist idiots simply because you don't know anything more about hip-hop culture than 50 cent and what's on TV most of the time. The youths who cause violence at these rap shows are similarly ignorant about how to live a peaceful life because in many of the communities, this is not promoted and it is not even taught as an option due to horrible education and a self-defeating cycle of poverty. It's interesting that every year more than 100 people are killed in Europe over violence at soccer games, but none of you say shit. Apparently, it's different when that hapens because they're white, and therefore it's only an isolated incident rather than the norm. To the original poster who I quoted- if you think that violence is all that hip hop is about, you really haven't been to many shows. I don't deny there is a large part of hip-hop culture that is driven by the mainstream media and record labels that glorifies violence. Guess what, you fucking idiot?- There are hundreds of equally, if not moreso, violent movies put out every decade (if I remember right, Natural Born Killers was directed by a white man, and starred white actors, but it was cool, i guess, because they werent black). More importantly, though, is the fact that the majority of real hip hop fans despise this kind of ignorance and stupidity shown at this Lil Flip show. But just as there is a violent contingent of hip hop music, there is an equally mysonginistic and violent portion of rock music. Do you not understand that large cultural phenomenons such as rock and rap are not black and white, but are rather made up of contingents of fans with very different interests and ideals? I don't judge rock music on the mysoginistic lyrics of "Smack My Bitch Up" by Marylon Manson, or the lyrics of "I kill children" By Dead Kennedy, featuring such pacifist lyrics as "I kill children, I love to see them die. I kill children to make their mothers cry. I crush them under my car and I love to hear them scream. I feed them poison candy and spoil their Halloween. I kill children, I bang their heads in doors. I kill children, I can hardly wait for yours." or Slayer, "No apparent motive. Just kill and kill again. Survive my brutal slashing. I'll hunt you till the end." Stop judging hip hop exclusively by such incidents as these. Where were you when rappers like Master P raised over 5 million dollars for Katrina relief without major corporate sponsors? Where were you when Jay-Z announced he will be privately funding a new private school in New York where minorities can get a fair and equal education to their white counterparts? If you want to be racist, good for you man. I can't and won't tell anyone else how to think or act. But when you make dumb fucking generalizations about rap and black culture, you not only show yourself to be wrong, but ignorant, closed minded, and more than anything, just plain stupid. Beat up some black kids at the club tonight, will you?

• If you can't see the constant violence, especially gun related violence, that surrounds hip hop then you are BLIND. Is it as bad as it is made out to be by the sensationalist media we have in this country? No, probably not. But you cannot help starting to form those opinions when it is what you see all the time. It would be nice to see a story on some of the good things the artists do instead of nothing but the violence when it occurs.

• This entire thread reeks of people talking about something they know nothing about, neither music nor culture. Anybody who thinks that Lil Flip, 50 Cent, or any other glorified drug dealer, represents hip-hop's roots, or what it has evolved to today, is showing their credentials, and should probably keep their mouth/keyboards quiet. Hip-hop started out as a nonviolent way for urban youth to express themselves, what it has morphed into is nothing more than one big marketing plan designed to capture the wallets of white suburban kids and their parents, probably some of the same people who are on here bemoaning hip-hop like its the anti-christ. And to the genius in this post who thinks the public schools have too much money, we're not talking about your neighborhood (Edina of Eden Prarie). We're talking about real public schools with real diversity. If all you know about hip-hop culture is what you see on TV or read in the newspaper, maybe you should try experiencing it before you bash it. I've been to over 50 hip-hop shows in my life, and have yet to have a bad experience.

• has anyone been up the street from the quest @ bar time? the refuge....or brothers. go watch all the drunk white kids fight @ bar time. when i was leaving downtown on sat nite i saw two white kids cuffed and face down after a brawl..... but the police are always on that corner so he prolly didnt have time 2 go get daddys gun. maybe the police are @ fault.... gosh? they hafta of know that lil flip was in town? right? instead of 3-4 cops hanging out chattin @ all the lil cute drunk gurls...prolly over-served college gurls..... move one of the squads down in front of the club.....patrol biatch! how a bout this.... where ever the shooter lived...im betting he had previous beef with the guy he shot... maybe it was also his X gurlfriend.... maybe he was selling pot 2 all of his customers..... thatll make ya real mad! im sure the shooter had a scooter!

• So sad. The generalizations. The not wanting to have to generalize. The confusion. There is good and bad in everything.

• There's a lot of blaming and fingerpointing, that much is obvious. Yet no one seems to be as quick to come up with a solutuion. Simply saying "don't do that!" doesn't work. Not on "adults", and trust me, with that bunch at the Quest, that term is used very loosely. $2-whore loose. Still its wrong for anyone to blame the violence on the music, the culture, the economic status, or as something inherently black to do. Acts of violence happen all the time, in every culture. Hell, when one mentions hockey I'll bet most people think of it only in terms of watching white people knock each other's blocks around with some slapping of a puck in between fights. Or what about "mosh pits"? A bunch of mostly white people, dressed in weird (to an outsider) clothes, pierced all over for no apparent reason, literally banging their heads to some keening metal song not heard on any radio station (probably ICP, or someone), throwing each other around and punching each other, bodysurfing and all that good stuff. But statements like those are just generalizations, not an absolute truth about white culture (although ya'll mofo's are known to get kinda wild at soccer and rugby games). Same thing with the black culture. Rap doesn't speak for everyone who's got dark skin. Idiots come in all shades. In all economic demographics. Lil flip's music may glorify a fantasy, but last I read he didn't put, in fact a lot of artists never put a gun to someone's head and told them to start bugging at a club. Maybe they put a gun to someone's head for another reason, but not to bug out at a club. Its just a lot of talk, with some good beats (sometimes good) behind it. Remember "snapping" on your friends in school? Like that, but with music. But lets stop with the generalizations. Otherwise, all black people are gonna be poor, dumb, and violent and all white people are gonna be rich, educated, and have kids who get automatic weapons no poor, dumb, black kid can afford and shoot up their school because they were teased, or shoot up their parent's chests because they didn't like to be disciplined.

• i can't wait for bullet hole sheek fashon to take over paris. nothing says hip and sophisticated like a bullet hole scar.

• I hate to point out the obvious (and repeat myself from MNSpeak), but here goes: Hundreds of people were at that show who had nothing to do with the violence. They waited outside in the cold, paid their $20, danced and talked, bought drinks, were polite to the openers, and otherwise bided their time for hours until the headliner finally came on at 1:30 a.m. When fights broke out, and Lil' Flip cut the music, people tried to break up the scuffles, or otherwise stayed out of the way while waiting (and waiting) for security to take control. After the shooting outside, when people were told they couldn't leave the building, they just patiently waited some more. Music fans are not what they listen to. I talked to fans at Young Jeezy who hate drug dealers--and Jeezy talks about nothing but drug dealing! You can take an educated guess and say that music appealing massively to the "hood" will inevitably draw more people who have violence in their lives. Those shows overall probably have more incidents of fighting than similarly alcohol-serving punk rock shows or "indie" hip hop shows or even agressive metal shows where (let's be honest) fights ALSO happen. That doesn't mean that violence always or even often spills over into ghetto-aimed concerts or events. Shows like that happen ALL THE TIME without you ever hearing about them because nobody spoiled the good time. Making generalizations about the audience for this music is as stupid as making generalizations about the particular audience at the Quest on Saturday. As I said on the DUNation board, the violent behavior I saw was pathetic and disgusting. It was obviously the fault of those fools who initiated it and prolonged it. Most everyone at the Quest that night felt the same way (judging by what they said, and the looks on their faces). Why would you assume otherwise?

• Agreed, JohnR. The mainstream hip hop community having that stupid "No Snitching" policy doesn't seem to help either. Not only do they encourage a culture of violence by rapping about it and showing it in their videos, but protect said people who commit violent acts. If you see someone kill another person, don't be a piece of shit, TELL THE COPS. This happened outside the club I work at, like ten people were in a circle while this guy was getting beat and all of them said nothing to the cops. The guy had two kids, a wife etc. who will never know who did it.. because of NO SNITCHING. Fucking man up and take some responsibility, you stupid tools. Mainstream hip hop is 100% shitty.

• Bill Cosby said it best: "Let me tell you something," Cosby, one of America's most admired men, told the group. "Your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other nigger as they're walking up and down the street. They think they're hip. They can't read. They can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."

• Gabe, I appreciate the mention of other hip-hop styles that serve as an inspiration, rather than a retaliation. Let's face it, the mainstream hip-hop that dominates a good majority of the media culture in this country does indeed celebrate violence. Drug abuse, murder, gang life, and disrespect towards women are prominent themes in the most popular rap music. Didn't drug dealer turned billboard rapper 50 cent just release a movie about his violent life on the streets? I have not seen the film, but I do observe many 12-20yr old male acquaintances of mine going to see the film, not as a reflection on how to avaid living like a gangster, but becuase they think it looks "cool". Rap culture, not the broader category of hip-hop, glamorizes violence. American pop culutre, for the decade, has fully embraced and also glamorized rap culure. By doing so, the media culture has endorsed the messages of violence. Look around. Violence exists in every facet of our modern media. Violent tv, violent movies, violent sports (which also suffer from post-game riots), and of course, music. It's the suppression of love. We're afraid to let anyone know that we love. Because in this society, love is equivelant to weakness. Funny note, "peace out" is a common hip-hop term.

• Has anyone here ever been to a TRUE punk show? Punk rock, and a majority of it's audience, comes from the same poverty and violence stricken neighborhoods as the hip hop/rap crowd. The dancing or moshing is practically group beatings at times. Yet, people come together at shows as one. There is no difference and no axe to grind with anyone. Sure there is the occasional fight, just like anywhere else, but on the whole it is a laid back and accepting atmosphere. No one gets threatened with or becomes a victim of gun violence as seen at your typical rap/hip hop concert/movie/etc. hell,even the BANDS hang out with the crowd with no fear of violence. This can in no way be attributed to poverty or violent upbringing. It's pure ignorance. Unfortunately it seems that a large portion of the hip hop community are ignorant gun toting thugs who believe that they have something to prove by injuring or killing a like minded peer. They think that the world is one big prison where all that matters is respect. When that large portion can rise above all that childish bullshit and get along at a rap/hip hop function, that will be the day that that genre of music will finally get some respect.

• Thanks, jDs. I would add that people who think parents should stay home with their kids every night of the week have never been parents. There's this other fad called "babysitting."

• I love all the people trying to use the excuse "But sometimes, violence happens at white rock shows too..." Shut up. You know damn well your hip hop "community" glorifies violence, killing, degradation of women, drugs etc. and refocusing the blame onto "white" people isn't helping your case. It only goes to show how big of tools the majority of hip hop fans are. And Dimebag Darrell was killed by a mentally ill lone gunman. I'm a part time bouncer for a club and the violence in rock and metal shows does not even COMPARE to that at hip hop shows. Nice try, though.

• Hold on - isn't Minneapolis the city who's football team takes sex cruises on Lake Minnetonka?

• Sure, white people represent a majority of hip-hop purchases. There is, however, one issue that everyone is ignoring: Why is it that things like this always seem to happen when black people are gathered to hear hip-hop/rap at a club, concert, or awards show? Every culture has idiots, and there are a ton of causes for violent actions, but you'd have to be an idiot not to recognize the connection between hip-hop/rap, the black community, and violence. Take away the hip-hop/rap part, and the violence lessens. Similarly, take away the black community from hip-hop/rap and the violence lessens. Wake up people. Quit making excuses and blaming "The Man" and "The System". It's a struggle within your own community, and you're not helping it by constantly pointing the finger elsewhere.

• yeah, because nothing like this ever happens at white rock shows. nope, never.

• QUOTE: The violence comes from poverty, not culture. Bahahaha. No. The violence comes from the violent pieces of shit who want to be "gangstas" when they are getting to be 30 years old and have 6 kids at home who they should be taking care of instead of being out at the club, trying to make even more kids. It has nothing to do with money, or opportunity, or oppression, and everything to do with a bullshit out-dated ghetto mentality.

• All this talk about Disco being dead... pfft. Disco, in the form of disco house, is very much alive and still disco. Now if we concider that it has evolved into every little sub-genre of electronica out there, you might say that not only is disco not dead, but it is in fact one of the most popular genre's of music alive today. Hip-hop is the same- there are a hundred varieties of it, and none of them are "dead". Music does not die, it only rests for a moment. Hell, my mother goes out every weekend and dances to Italian folk music... if I were to think any music were dead, that would have been it.

• This thread is so sad and hopeful at the same time. It casts in sharp relief the ignorance and racism that still exists in Minneapolis. People the decry hip hop know nothing about true hip hop, the people that blame the black community aren't part of it, and the people who blame poverty probably haven't experienced it. A few complete idiots at a club ruined the night for everyone. This says absolutely nothing about hip hop as a whole, the black community or culture as a whole, or Minneapolis as a whole. It was a bad night. Fraternity members at the U beating some poor bastard on 4th St [which I saw last week] were total idiots too. People are idiots sometimes, most of the time they're ok. To single out hip hop culture as responsible for the violence only shows one's ignorance of hip hop culture - which, taken as a whole, decries this kind of senseless violence. It is interesting though, most people's responses here don't seem to say much worthwhile about what happened, but they sure do say a lot about the authors. And btw, disco was a fad - hip hop will never die.

• Well let's see here. If everybody listening thinks THEY have more money, hos, and guns, sooner or later someones gonna ask you to prove it. Ta da, instant altercations. It's the same way gangsta Rap music has been for at least 20 years. Thankfully most people grow out of it, and don't want their own kids listening to cRap. Unfortunately kids end up listening to it to rebel and scare their parents, so I agree it will be around for a while. Leaving cRap music behind is a sign of maturity. Listening to cRap leads to an immature, and aggressive mentality which is obviously the case here. I'm not sayin all hip hop is bad just this "look at me, I'm a thug" cRap. Really, no one cares how bad you think you are. Honestly it just makes you look foolish.

• If I remember correctly. Some guitarist from a Metal band was shot and killed not to long ago. Def Leppered or Van Halen or AC/DC or one of those 80's bands. So maybe we should re-think that it is hiphop only that cause violence.

• Has anyone ever been to a punk show? They fight too. It's a combination of alcohol and ignorance. This happens just about everywhere you go these days. It's not a black thang.

• I agree on Gabe with this one, there's plenty of great hip-hop and rap out there that's learned and witty. But your typical MTV reggie (lil Flip, lil Jon, anybody with Lil in front, 50 cent, big tymers, fabolous), you know, the one's live off fried chicken and watermelon, are the one's that ruin the true art-form that is hip-hip by turning it into a money-making scheme so they can satiate they're materialistic desires. They don't even have good taste in cars! They make all this money and they buy a fuckin Escalade! Get a real car, like a Ford Explorer lol.

• "It sucks that Dimebag Darrel got killed at a Hip/Hop show. Oh wait..." Dimebag Darrel was killed by a lone psychotic, btw. The incident at Quest appears to be yet another combination of the young and ignorant being poorly supervised.

• As the great philosopher R. King once said, "Can't we all just get along?"

• I love how rap artists are the only ones who promote violence and use bad grammar in their songs. I think I recall Johnny Cash promoting how he once shot a guy, "just to watch him die." And oh yeah, the Rolling Stones never used bad grammar. C'mon people...real hip-hop isn't on the radio, Lil' Flip is just part of the menstral [minstrel? - Ed.] show that mainstream hip-hop has become.

• There is a lot of hip hop that is not focused on violence, and if you knew anything about it's roots you'd know it actually was originally used as an anti-violence movement for the poor youth in New York. However money is very powerful and there are people out there who find it beneficial financially to project negative stereotypes.

• Interesting comments in this discussion so far. I think alot of you are missing a point here: Alot of this stuff perpetuates not because of the realities of inner-city black culture but because it sells to the 70 percent market share of music buying public. That seventy percent market share is..you guessed it, white kids from the suburbs that have no contact with street life 99 percent of their insular lives. The image sells, the sex sells, the degredation sells because if it didn't guys like Mos Def, Common and Talib kweli would be top of the charts. This is moot though. The problem was with the retarded crowd, not necessarily the music.

• Mike is a flaming liberal. Poverty doesn't cause this. Poverty has been around forever, but this culture of violence is only a couple decades old. Also, education is adequately funded --- in fact, overfunded. Do away w/ the education dept and get govt out of the business. Then we'll have less uninformed folks like Mike.

• To Gabe: Thank You. These fools in here have no idea how thought provoking underground/indie Hip-Hop is. If they were to listen to some Madvillian, quasimoto, Dr. Octagon, Deltron, EL-P, Cannibal OX, Del the funky, Yesterday's New Quintet, MF Doom, (do I need to continue?) they would realize that this mass marketed Bull Sh*t Hip-Hop is just that, Mass marketed Bull Sh%t Hip-Hop.

• Here's an idea for Mr. Scholtes or some other intrepid reporter... do a statistical analysis. Go to the police department and look up the number of violent crime reports at or near downtown nightspots. Match them up to the genre of music being performed on the night of the report. See if there's any correlation.

• Race, race, race........ Can we PLEASE Take away the race issue. I don't give a rats hairy a$$ what race the individuals were. Let's stick to the facts. shall we..? The Artists performances glorify violence. Theres violence at the concert. And we're shocked because.......?

• Yo, this has got nothing to do with schools or society - this is cause a bunch of lazy mofos got nothing better to do than get their trash all jacked up. First, get a job. Second, get a life. Then maybe you'll pull your situaton out of the gutter before it's too late. You think the government's gonna save your ass when you get old and got nothing? Think again, bitch - you're on your own in this world.

• Bull. Why is it when blacks do somehting wrong it's because of "poverty", but when they do something right it's because of their "culture". There's NO responsibility in black America. Whenever you screw up, it's because of poverty or racism. An easy excuse.

• Wow what a shocker. Violence breaks out in a club where they have METAL DETECTORS...Rap is not the cause, poverty is not the cause, schools are not the cause. RESPECT IS...the people in this club that became violent have no respect for themselves or others. They will yell at the moon that they deserve respect but won't do a damn thing to earn respect.

• There is no excuse for any race or culture to act this way period. Contemporary society shows a major difference which exists between cultures concerning public gatherings. Why, for example, the difference between the outcomes of major sporting events? We ask ourselves, what is the difference in the post game activities at major sporting events considering the majority demographic which attends those events. Where do the riots take place? I can not predict the events that may appear in the future, but wont I have to consider the past before I make a decision?

• Interesting how somehow Black culture and hip-hop culture are cultures of violence, and the rest of American culture is somehow peaceful and wonderful. For instance, you can support the Bush administration as much as you want (and I'm guessing a number of these people do), but you can't argue that there isn't a culture of violence there, and they are the leaders of this nation (and don't even try to tell me that it's because of Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell infiltrating our governemnt). This isn't about Black culture, this isn't even about hip-hop culture, this is about American culture and what it does to all of us. I could try to explain it all to you, but that would be in vain anyways, and take way too much time. How about this: go learn something. anything. It will do you some good.

• Wow...I didn't think there was anyone left on the planet who was so out of touch with the times as to still think that hip hop music and culture is a fad like disco that will die. wake up. look around you - it's in every single segment of our media and culture. I really pity people like you...you have eyes but you obviously don't see. Also, this isn't the only kind of hip hop - there is an equally large movement of 'underground' or 'indie' hip hop that is thoughtful, intelligent, inspirational, innovative and creative (which is more then I can say about most genre's of music out now) and I've been going to underground hip hop shows for a decade and I have never seen a fight, ever. You really should do your homework before you go spouting off uninformed opinions, you just look like fools.

• Yet they continue to breed...

• This is why the hip hop community is considered a joke. Hip hop is disco that forgot that it sucks a$$. Self-control and using proper grammar. Items your community lacks. No wonder no one takes you seriously. Learn to speak correctly. It's not "axe," it's "ask."

• Just FYI, these aren't the worst comments we've gotten: The City Pages blog administrator is simply deleting the more blatant racist ones--four so far.

• It sucks that Dimebag Darrel got killed at a Hip/Hop show. Oh wait...

• Last I checked, blacks weren't the only people that listened to hip hop. This music is international now. It almost belongs to nobody. This just can't be blamed on blacks anymore, but I will say that for the particular age group that attended the concert, there was no reason for anything that ridiculous to go down.

• You're right, "all" is pushing it too far. Let's say 90%. Just like 90% of pop artists are no talent hacks and 80% of the bands suck. The difference? The hip hop/rap community actively suck while promoting violence and degredation. The pop artist promote themselves and the bands, well they're not paragons of mental fitness either. And don't pull the race/prejudice card out so quickly. It isn't like this is an isolated occurance at a rap concert. In fact aren't we really post-judging this instead of pre-judging it?

• Posted by: TG>> This is NOT prejudice, sir. Whether hip hop culture is a reflection of life or life is a reflection of hip hop culture, it's hard to deny the fact that there is an acceptance and even glorification of violence in poor communities, and in rap. Notice I choose not to say black communities, becuase this is definitely an issue of economics, not of race. It just so happens that most fans of this type of rap happen to be the black segments of the poor populace.

• hey tg, no one on this message board fired a gun at anyone, so I'm guessing any ignorance displayed here is far less in magnatude than that which was displayed at the club.

• The violence comes from poverty, not culture. The poverty is something forced upon them by all kinds of things ranging from education levels of their parents to the quality of inner city schools. They need our help, first and foremost in the form of funding for education in underserved urban areas. If you want, think of it as strengthening America by helping those with the most need.

• The comments on this post so far really reek of prejudice. To call all hip-hop/rap artists no-talent hacks is wrong and to associate these actions with the whole of black culture is wrong.To make comments like these, the commentators display as much ignorance as the shooter(s).

• If only the hip-hop culture would break free of it's current programming and, instead, open it's arms to the true glory and might of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and his Chruch of the SubGenius, NONE of this would happen. If, for instance, those who performed Hip-Hop could just listen, just for once, to an Hour Of Slack (<a href="http://www.subgenius.com/ts/hos.html)" rel="nofollow">http://www.subgenius.com/ts/hos.html)</a> ALL of this silly violence would come to an abrubt stop. And the REAL violence could finally get going.

• Ok, first off... WTF? These are grown people and they're acting like a bunch of little whiny bitches who were SUPPOSED to be there to have a good time. At what point do you turn to the guy next to you and think 'I'm gonna beat his ass!?' It really does reflect WHY people look at Hip-Hop as an excuse to be a assholes. Second, if you've got kids at home... WHY are you out there fighting? What? Don't you give a damn about your babies? While I respect the fact that he called EVERYONE out on that mass stupidity, he should have just cut his set and walked backstage and let the club simmer. They were acting like babies so treat them like babies. I also think security should have done something before it got out of control.

• what a bunch of trashy MF'ers.

• I really hope african americans can take a look at the culture they have fostered and realize that attitudes are going to have to change in order to bring an entire sub-culture of people back into some semblance of the mainstream. Being different is fine, celebrating your own unique art is great, but the violence really needs to end.

• I just can't wait for the day when hip-hop/rap has its day as "disco". It will be funny watching a bunch of no-talent, music stealing hacks have to go find a real job.

• Sounds like a great show... And you wonder why Hip-Hop has a bad image...grow up.

• i went to a lil flip concert in rosarito. he didnt show up until 230 in the morning, did a twenty minute set and bounced. maybe thats why they were rioting

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